You can be a criminal in the military, but not gay

[Kizzume]

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071106/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/military_waivers

It's interesting to me how people who have committed some semi-serious crimes can get into the military, but they're still not letting up on that gay ban. Okay, whatever.....

How can we let criminals into the military? What's next--let people out of prison if they join the military?

[jen]

Seriously. I completely agree with you. I can't stand some of the iffy guys my husband works with. One actually joined the Army to get away from some pretty serious prison time. They told him, join the army, or go to prison. He chose the army. The thing about it is, he is still a piece of shit and is not someone I want standing next to Tony if the shit ever hit the fan.
I really wish they would just not worry about sexual orientation in the military. I know my husband would not care. Neither would my dad, who has been an officer for the past 26 years. Why does it matter who you share your personal life with, when you are in the military? I actually know of a few people in the service that just don't talk about their personal life. One includes a woman who has lived with her partner since before she was in the service. This woman (her partner) has stuck by her through all of the crap that comes with the military, but cannot get the same benefits that I can, because they do not recognize gay marriages. It makes me sick. If her partner was to die in action, she would not be able to get any of the support, or respect that is given to the husbands, and wives of same sex military marriages that have lost their partners. I really wish the military world would open it's eyes, but sadly, I don't think it is going to happen any time soon. (Sorry for the rant, this is a touchy subject for me, I get a little passionate about it. )

[Ess2s2]

*sigh*

Okay, I just want to let it be known that I'm not defending any one group or person with this post. I'm just stating the facts as they are.

First of all, the "Join the military or go to prison" racket has been going on for as long as there have been prisons or the military. In fact, in recent years (the last decade and a half or so), that policy has seen major reductions due to the fact the military is trying to clean up it's image in a post-modern, anti-war cultural setting. Of course, now with increased attrition in the military ranks and the pressure for higher recruiting quotas, I'm not surprised to see the practice revised and renewed.

Second of all, blaming the military for not recognizing gay unions is foolish, misdirected, and leads to needless unrest. As far as homosexuality is concerned, the military is strictly neutral. No, really, the military doesn't care. There is no check box on any military application that asks if you are gay. The military will never, ever ask any service member what their sexual orientation is. The reason homosexuals get separated from service is because they bring their personal lives to the job and it interferes with their work. I'm not going to explain it, it'll only make you mad, suffice it to say that homosexuals who allow their sexual preference to be known are typically separated under an administrative discharge for their own safety. It has nothing to do with the homosexuals being hated on by the military, it has everything to do with the majority of other service members being intolerant. The reason gays are not given the same benefits as straights is due to the current legislation in this country. They don't hand out benefits to co-habitors either, they require a valid marriage certificate for any benefits to be given. Not the military's fault, talk to your local senator. As soon as gay marriage is a sanctioned practice in the U.S. You can bet the military will follow suit.

Okay Jen, I can sympathize with you and your husband, I've run across my fair share of douchebags in my time. They do in fact detract from unit cohesion, and I have had to scream at my fair share of subordinates in order to get things back on track. That said, there isn't a company in the world that you won't find worthless detriments to society. every business has them. Hell, the police departments have them, I know, I've had to work closely with some of them. The fact is, you or your husband have many options for recourse available to you. The first step would be an informal grievance. Informal grievances are held in confidence and allow the unit commander to keep a closer eye on the alleged problem causer. If that doesn't yield results, there are successively more severe steps that can be taken. The military is nothing if not all about rules and order.

Finally, you don't know how someone is going to act in a life or death situation. The company hero can suddenly turn into a self-serving coward, and the big troublemaker could suddenly become the one to save lives no matter what the cost. In reading the article, I saw some pretty glaring inconsistencies with the argument that posits the military is recruiting hardened criminals. The stories about the kid charged with arson and the kids charged with assault with a deadly weapon (shoe) are perfect examples of ways a story can be spun to meet certain agendas. The fact is, a wide variety of people are being recruited into the military, including but not limited to conservatives, liberals, kids with juvenile records, people who have done "hard" time, vets from other service branches, people from military backgrounds, college grads, gays, gang members, couch potatoes, dropouts, and many others. Just like the country it serves, the military is a melting pot, with all the same advantages and problems.

Now before I go, I would like to simultaneously summarize my post and directly address the thread title, which is patently wrong. You can be whatever you want in the military, but unless you make being a service member first priority, you won't be anything in the military for long.

[Hackfest]

It has nothing to do with the homosexuals being hated on by the military, it has everything to do with the majority of other service members being intolerant.

^Truth.

[jen]

I am not saying I know any more, or any less about the army, than anyone else in the world. I just have been around military instillations for 25years. . This shitbrick who chose the army, instead of prison, also stole another soldiers night vision goggles, scraped the serial number off, and tried to scratch the number of his missing nods onto it. He was not punished, because they had more important things going on overseas to worry about. By the time things slowed down, it had already become to late to punish him. You have to do things within a certain amount of time, and with things like R&R rotations, and missions happening every other day, there was not time to fill out the necessary paperwork. Not the fault of my husband, paperwork cannot be filled out while on a 30 day patrol mission, nor is it expected to be. The person who was left behind to do the job, did not. Just because you will find less than par workers in every job in the world, does not make it okay, that they are less than par. I understand that you will find inadequate people in every job, and every position. I brought up a particular person, because of particular things he had done wrong. Given his shady past, and his repeated screw-ups on the job with my husband as his NCO, I have made an opinion, that he is not someone I want to be responsible for my husbands life. Just my personal opinion, as I am entitled to have.
Now, onto my friend and her partner. Even if they did get married, which they plan on doing when this deployment is over, the Army still will not recognize it. They can go to a state that allows gay marriage, get married, get a valid certificate, and the now married couple, will still be denied BAH, and benefits for the spouse. I think the only way we have found around it, is that the woman can now become a dependent, but will never be listed as a spouse. To me, that is pretty disrespectful. She deserves all of the same benefits I have. Again, this is my personal opinion.
I respect differing opinions. I just tend to maintain my own, even after a different view is presented. Though, having my opinion called foolish, or misdirected, does not direct the same respect towards my opinion, as I would direct towards others. With that said, I will not be posting again on this topic. I am not upset, and there are no hard feelings, so please don't take it as that. I just am finished with the subject. My opinion has been stated, and that's all I intended to do.

[Ess2s2]

Yes, foolish, because the military recognizes federal law, and not state law. Thinking otherwise is indeed foolish.

[jq]

hackfest said:

It has nothing to do with the homosexuals being hated on by the military, it has everything to do with the majority of other service members being intolerant.

^Truth.

I could maybe be fooled into believing this, if it wasn't for the fact that both the UK and Israel allow homosexuals into their military with no problem. And the fact is, those are two of the best militaries in the entire world, so they must not be getting too distracted or having too many conflicts with homosexuals.

ess2s2 said:

Now before I go, I would like to simultaneously summarize my post and directly address the thread title, which is patently wrong. You can be whatever you want in the military, but unless you make being a service member first priority, you won't be anything in the military for long.

This makes a lot of sense to me. Still, there are a lot of straight guys in the military who are vocal about what they feel about women. It is too bad that gay guys can't be as open about how they feel. There is a real double standard. Having said that, obviously you make a valid point that if you aren't vocal about it, you can be gay and in the military.

[Ess2s2]

I absolutely agree that there is a double standard, and that is very wrong. The double standard is not with the organization called the military though, as many seem to think. The double standard is with the people in the military, and how they deal with those who are different. The fact is that the military pushes such a high level of conformity that one of the biggest coping mechanisms that people use is to pare out and endlessly critique and ridicule any differences they can find in others. This can be as small as someone with glasses or an accent in their speech, and can be as large and devastating as someone's sexual orientation, skin color, or ethnicity. Is it right? Not by a long shot. Does it happen? Absolutely.

Also, I'll say this again, not because I think anyone on this board is stupid, but because it is such a fundamental issue that it bears repeating over and over again. If there is dissatisfaction in regards to how a given organization, public or private, handles gay unions, the best thing one can possibly do is contact their senators and other government representatives. Petition them, come together as a community and make them go to bat for you, that is why they are there, that is why they were elected, to serve you. I am not so romantic as to believe our current government can solve all of our problems as a society, but we can at least make them earn their tax-paid salaries.

[Kizzume]

If someone in the military who is off duty goes to a gay bar, that should be his own business. If other military personnel see him going into a gay bar, and a bunch of rumors go around based on that, and it gets around to higher ranks, I don't think that person should be able to be removed from the military over it. That is the problem with "don't ask, don't tell". It can be used and has been used in that manner to kick people out of the military. Sure, the other officers shouldn't be starting rumors, but you can't do anything about human nature in that way, but you can change laws to take those kinds of things into consideration.

On really ANY issue, if one wants to do something about it, one needs to be specific about what they think should be done about the problem before they bring it up to government representatives. Sure, bringing up something general helps, but not as much as being more specific. One way to get more specific about those kinds of things is to discuss them until the subject has enough substance between people that one can extrapolate a distinct message to give to the representatives. That's one of the great things about forums.

If everyone wrote to their represenatives about these things...... (open)





the representatives would have too many letters to even begin to read..... (closed, so sad)

Ok, so those were really bad Swan references....

EDIT:(okay, it the whole last part after the first smiley was somehow supposed to be a joke, and now that I read it, it doesn't make sense and isn't really even funny... oh well)

[Kizzume]

{quote]Second of all, blaming the military for not recognizing gay unions is foolish, misdirected, and leads to needless unrest. As far as homosexuality is concerned, the military is strictly neutral. No, really, the military doesn't care. [/quote]

No, really, the military DOES care. That's why people are still kicked out because somebody saw them go into a gay bar and rumors started from there.

As far as something like gay unions--if the location of the military base is in a state that has legalized gay marriage, I think it would be very sad if the military didn't consider it valid. Not surprising, but still very sad.

I don't think it's "foolish" to think the military would do it any differently, I'd say it's being more HOPEFUL that the military might do it differently.

[Ess2s2]

Okay, we are retreading old ground. Being hopeful about something doesn't make it happen. You can't petition the military. They do things the way they do because that's how they are instructed to do it from the government. You want to change the military? Change the government.

Thinking a military base would adopt state law over federal law is...not looking at the entire picture. If every military base in every state observed local laws over federal ones, the military would have an overwhelming set of arbitrary laws, many of which would conflict with one another. The military doesn't answer to the state it is in, it answers to the federal government. That's how it is, sorry. All the hopeful or foolish thinking in the entire world is not going to change that.

And NO the military DOES NOT CARE! The only thing the military cares about is the safety of their soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen. If someone walks into a gay bar and rumors start, and there is a possibility for hate-inspired violence, the military is going to take steps to prevent that. They work on a case-by-case basis. There is no SECDEFINST that says gays must be kicked out. The military branch will examine the situation. They will, in as many cases as possible, retain the service member and seek alternate means of resolution, including, but not limited to NJP for the people inciting the problems, forfeiture of pay of the inciting individuals, reassignment of any or all service members, counseling, human sensitivity and leadership classes, temporarily assigned duties, or extra duties, among other things. In most cases, separation of the gay service member is a last resort. The reason so many people think that gays are separated based solely on their sexuality is because that makes good journalism. Those are the only cases you hear about out of the military. You never hear the story of how everything was solved amicably because that makes a shitty news bite. I know the situation because I spent more than 6 years in the military, and I sat in on several NJP's and court martials dealing with the aforementioned subject matter, and the gay was not always the victim! I had to go to bat for my sailors more times that I would have liked, and every case was different. Every case boiled down to the same thing though, did someone violate the UCMJ and is someone in danger?

I'm telling you the cold, hard, facts. There is absolutely NO opinion in anything I've said up to this point. This is the way things are in reality. You want something different? Talk to your government officials.

[Kizzume]

I've known 2 people who have been kicked out of the military. One of them was because they were caught going to a gay bar and rumors started. The people I know seem to have experienced something different than you have. You might be very well telling the truth, but so am I.

[jq]

kizzume said:

I've known 2 people who have been kicked out of the military. One of them was because they were caught going to a gay bar and rumors started. The people I know seem to have experienced something different than you have. You might be very well telling the truth, but so am I.

Yeah, the military DOES care. I read a great book by a guy who was in the military his whole life. He got really high up in rank, received a degree from the US Military Academy, and then got Harvard Masters Degree in military strategy. No Joe shmo. He now works as a military contributor for Fox News.

The author is Brian Haig. The book is Mortal Allies. The main topic of the story covers homosexuality and his opinion of it (and other people's opinion of it too) as he tries to break this a complicated bungle in South Korea. One of the best books I have read in ages. Couldn't put it down. Read what he says about it.


(And if you do, read the whole book because otherwise you are going to think the guy is just your typical military homophobe-- he isn't, but he definitely starts out that way.)


He seems to think that homosexuality is a common, controversial, and important issue in the US military, to the people who are in it. And seeing about all of his experience in the military, his degree from the military academy, and his further education in the military field, I tend to believe he knows what he is talking about.

And that is the cold reality.

[Kizzume]

Well, another thing is--the people who I know that were kicked out are both very effeminate. Nothing against feminine people. But it would seem THAT is what they were targeted for. Maybe there's something I don't know about. I just know that people are being kicked out for their sexuality who should not have been.

[technocrat]

No one here should have a problem kicking gays out of the military. All they need to do is say they aren't matching up with Christian values enough. That apparently justifies anything.