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Post by Kizzume on Nov 27, 2007 1:55:08 GMT -5
Some sources say he was, others say he was not. Either way, he certainly wasn't the good type of religious, that's for sure. This site offers a mixed conclusion. I don't know what to think at this point. |
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Post by technocrat on Nov 27, 2007 2:13:31 GMT -5
Yes, he was. He was born and raised a devout Catholic, which he repeatedly mentions in Mein Kampf long before he ever got into power, made a single speech, or became famous. Consistently in power, he referenced Jesus, the Lord, and God. He also believed he was doing God's work. Most Nazis were very religious.
It's generally a myth he and the Nazis were atheists. Hell, even Stalin wasn't atheist.
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Post by jen on Nov 28, 2007 11:33:38 GMT -5
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
I found this quote. It seems to me that he was in fact Christian, and not anti-religion at all.
But, to me, it does not matter what religion people are, or are not. If they are bad people, they are bad. It does not make any bit of difference if they are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or Atheist. In my personal opinion, people are much more than their religious beliefs or lack there of. Most people who I have encountered, unless they are really close friends, do not know that I am an Atheist. I don't find the need to advertise it. If someone asks me, I will tell them, but it is not the supporting pillar of my personality.
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Post by jq on Nov 28, 2007 11:48:39 GMT -5
Hitler Religious? Sure, why not? You could call anyone religious if you want to. Heck, if Technocrat was raised religious, that must make him religious too  But based on the fact that the Bible places value and emphasis on the Jewish people, I would say the guy who wanted to kill all the jews probably wasn't up to Biblical standards. Hitler Christian? Yeah, okay........  |
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Post by jen on Nov 28, 2007 12:14:52 GMT -5
Hitler Religious? Sure, why not? You could call anyone religious if you want to. Heck, if Technocrat was raised religious, that must make him religious too But based on the fact that the Bible places value and emphasis on the Jewish people, I would say the guy who wanted to kill all the jews probably wasn't up to Biblical standards. Hitler Christian? Yeah, okay........ So what you're saying is that people who have proven themselves to be terrible people, can't be Christians, because some of the things they have done go against what Christianity stands for? I respect your opinion, but do not agree with it. There are many things the bible teaches, that some Christians do not live by. What about John Wayne Gacy, Harrison Graham, or Heriberto Seda? They were all killers, and all stated that they were religious. A persons evil nature, or good nature is not determined by what they do, or do not believe it when it comes to the religious side of things. I consider myself a good person, but, am not a Christian, and never will be. |
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Post by jq on Nov 28, 2007 21:23:50 GMT -5
We may have had a mistunderstanding, but it is hard to tell, because I am seeing two separate things in your post.
To clarify my opinion: I am not saying that good or bad acts make you a Christian or not a Christian. What I said was that Hitler's beliefs were inconsistent with the teachings of the Bible-- like the overall belief that the Jews are God's chosen people-- vs wanting to kill them all. If the actions and beliefs of hitler were inconsistent-- (see antonymous) with the holy book for that religion, how can you say he was Christian?
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Post by Kizzume on Nov 28, 2007 22:04:15 GMT -5
To me, it would be because he "considered" himself to be Christian. Pat Robertson and James Dobson don't really have a mindset that reflects biblical values, yet they consider themselves Christian and so do their followers. This is one thing that makes people start to use the phrase "real Christianity", since there seem to be so many people out there who call themselves Christian who don't really follow the "spirit" of the religion, so to speak, for a lack of a better term.
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Post by jen on Nov 28, 2007 22:42:53 GMT -5
To me, it would be because he "considered" himself to be Christian. Pat Robertson and James Dobson don't really have a mindset that reflects biblical values, yet they consider themselves Christian and so do their followers. This is one thing that makes people start to use the phrase "real Christianity", since there seem to be so many people out there who call themselves Christian who don't really follow the "spirit" of the religion, so to speak, for a lack of a better term. You pretty much smacked the nail on the head. I don't really understand how it makes sense, to say that because someones actions may be inconsistent with the Bible, that they are not considered Christian. I know many people, personally, that consider themselves to be Christians, but do not live their lives as the Bible seems to state that Christian people should. What about keeping holy the sabbath day? Or respecting your mother and father? Or coveting another's belongings? Most Christians cannot say that they have done, or not done these things as the bible says they should, but they are most definitely still considered to be Christians. Isn't it up to an individual as to whether they are a Christian or not? Or am I mistaken? Is there some list of things that a person must do in their life to be considered Christian by other Christians? I am not really getting it here. I am not trying to be condescending in any way. I am just confused as to how someone can actually state that they are a Christian, but not be considered one because they do not live their life as another Christian thinks they should. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding things. It is just the way it seems to be stated here. |
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Post by technocrat on Nov 28, 2007 22:46:45 GMT -5
Hitler's dislike of Jews doesn't make him any less Christian. Many Christian sects have hated Jews for centuries and were responsible for instituting persecutions of them. Many groups, especially the Protestants under Martin Luther, disliked Jews and called them satanic Christ Killers--ironically, just what Hitler called them. Hitler borrowed a lot of Christian historical antagonism of the Jews.
You can be violent, kill Jews and still consider yourself Christian. Hell, Christians have had centuries of killing other Christians because of various reasons sometimes themselves religious in nature: see the Crusades when the Christians sacked Byzantium on the way to sacking the real Infidel. Apparently, the Byzantines weren't "Christian enough."
It's nothing but a No True Scotsman to claim those Christians aren't "real" Christians. If we went by that standard, no one would be a Christian, since everyone's inherently evil (original sin and TULIP doctrine) and a sinner.
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Post by jq on Nov 28, 2007 22:47:10 GMT -5
To me, it would be because he "considered" himself to be Christian. Pat Robertson and James Dobson don't really have a mindset that reflects biblical values, yet they consider themselves Christian and so do their followers. This is one thing that makes people start to use the phrase "real Christianity", since there seem to be so many people out there who call themselves Christian who don't really follow the "spirit" of the religion, so to speak, for a lack of a better term. You pretty much smacked the nail on the head. I don't really understand how it makes sense, to say that because someones actions may be inconsistent with the Bible, that they are not considered Christian. I know many people, personally, that consider themselves to be Christians, but do not live their lives as the Bible seems to state that Christian people should. What about keeping holy the sabbath day? Or respecting your mother and father? Or coveting another's belongings? Most Christians cannot say that they have done, or not done these things as the bible says they should, but they are most definitely still considered to be Christians. Isn't it up to an individual as to whether they are a Christian or not? Or am I mistaken? Is there some list of things that a person must do in their life to be considered Christian by other Christians? I am not really getting it here. I am not trying to be condescending in any way. I am just confused as to how someone can actually state that they are a Christian, but not be considered one because they do not live their life as another Christian thinks they should. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding things. It is just the way it seems to be stated here. I think the difference I would like to point out is that my emphasis is on belief, not on action. Although I did throw the word "action" in there which may have muddied my point. Your friends you speak of who call themselves Christian, who you say don't follow the rules of the Bible: Do they believe in its basic premise? They must. In order to be a Christian, you have to have a certain set of beliefs. Hitler's beliefs are not the same as the beliefs of Christians. It has nothing to do with his actions. In order to be a Christian, from what I understand anyway, there are certain beliefs which are required. |
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Post by technocrat on Nov 28, 2007 22:51:28 GMT -5
Hitler certainly believed in Christ and held him as the saviour. He wasn't a "standard Christian" as he differed, but many radical sects do that. He modified Jesus into an Aryan, for instance. Either way, he was still very religious and not Atheist, even if it's not standard Christianity. What is most damning, however, is the fact that so many Christians gleefully went along with Nazism and extermination dogma, despite all the claims about how good Christians are because they are Christian.
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Post by jq on Nov 28, 2007 22:55:25 GMT -5
Hitler certainly believed in Christ and held him as the saviour. He wasn't a "standard Christian" as he differed, but many radical sects do that. He modified Jesus into an Aryan, for instance. Either way, he was still very religious and not Atheist, even if it's not standard Christianity. What is most damning, however, is the fact that so many Christians gleefully went along with Nazism and extermination dogma, despite all the claims about how good Christians are because they are Christian. If only that were true..... Hitler was a known reader and fan of Nietzsche. He toured the museums. He read the books. Nietzsche was a nihilist. His beliefs were openly anti-christian. To say that Hitler embraced Jesus as his savior is bull. |
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Post by jq on Nov 28, 2007 23:12:35 GMT -5
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Post by jq on Nov 28, 2007 23:17:30 GMT -5
There are a bunch of other quotes too, as if those weren't enough. Let's be honest here, Technocrat, the only reason why you make up these things about Hitler is because you aim to slander Christianity as a whole, not because you truly believe Hitler was a devout christian. While there are old quotes from before his rise to power where he says he is christian, once naziism became an established superpower, you will find that his talks go the complete other way.
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Post by technocrat on Nov 29, 2007 0:05:27 GMT -5
It is true. Hitler stated that Jesus was an Ayran, not a Jew, and all throughout Mein Kampf, he consistently references Bible verses and ascribes his mission in life to the Lord. Is it my fault you haven't read the source material? No. That's a personal problem.
Nietzsche wasn't Hitler's source of anti-semitism, and he's only tangentially related. It's irrelevant whether Nietzsche's beliefs were anti-Christian. That someone reads X doesn't mean that X is the basis of his beliefs.
Hitler certainly embraced Jesus: a modified version, of course.
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