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Post by jq on Nov 5, 2007 20:26:57 GMT -5
There's a lot I want to say in regards to that study but I won't given to several factors, not the least of which I feel a study about violence in 2 to 4 year olds has very little bearing on a discussion revolving around a videogame created and intended for, and marketed to adults. That is true. However, it stands to reason that if violent media can effect children's beavior, it may also possible for it to effect adults, don't you think? Also, I have known a lot of parents who let their children play mature rated games.
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Post by Ess2s2 on Nov 5, 2007 20:39:40 GMT -5
On your first point, that's a bit more extrapolation than most scientists would deem as acceptable.
On your second point, it's not your call if a parent wants to let their child play a mature videogame, it's theirs.
Thirdly, the media types don't correlate between the study and our discussion.
Fourth, there seems to be an unspoken assumption that kids can't be taught the difference between real and make believe.
Last, as a responsible adult, I take issue with the fact that someone or a group of someones is attempting to tell me what I can and cannot do, say, hear, see, or think.
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Post by jq on Nov 5, 2007 20:45:44 GMT -5
Who though? I am certainly not tell you what you can and cannot do. If you look at my earlier posts, you will see that I said I was against legislation against videogames (or movies, or music), and that I don't think watching any movie or videogame is wrong. But, as you have a right to play any game you want, I also have the right to feel concerned that so many people enjoy games that glamorize torture and murder. Not saying it should be illegal at all, just saying that it concerns me.
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Post by Ess2s2 on Nov 5, 2007 21:00:49 GMT -5
Fair enough, but idle concern is what gets things legislated away in the first place. I mean, I seriously think there are far too many dumb-ass parents out there, who don't take an active enough hand in rearing their young. There are far too many parents who plop their mentally stunted kids in front of a television or game console and expect it to babysit them. Then they are shocked and appalled when their kids don't communicate with them, don't trust them, don't behave themselves, seek fantasy worlds as mental retreats from harsh reality, and cannot mentally separate reality from fantasy.
These parents see this happening and blame the media instead of their own shortcomings as a parent because it's easier to create a faceless scapegoat than it is to take responsibility for one's actions.
I'm not calling you out JQ, I'm simply stating what I've seen to be true across all forms of media on a historical basis. Death Metal, Rap Music, violent cartoons, gory horror movies, lacivious books, daytime television, and more have all been pointed at when someone goes off the deep end and does something tragic. The rationale is never made that there are millions of other consumers of these same forms of media that are perfectly capable of keeping themselves in check. People have a right to do as they please and with that, a responsibility to do so with intelligence and compassion. Condemning someone who exercises the right but not the responsibility and laying blame on the media is a cop out.
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Post by Hackfest on Nov 5, 2007 22:09:17 GMT -5
Is the Mel Gibson thing because of the "Passion" movie?
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Post by Kizzume on Nov 5, 2007 22:39:01 GMT -5
I think so....
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Post by jq on Nov 5, 2007 22:51:19 GMT -5
Fair enough, but idle concern is what gets things legislated away in the first place. I mean, I seriously think there are far too many dumb-ass parents out there, who don't take an active enough hand in rearing their young. There are far too many parents who plop their mentally stunted kids in front of a television or game console and expect it to babysit them. Then they are shocked and appalled when their kids don't communicate with them, don't trust them, don't behave themselves, seek fantasy worlds as mental retreats from harsh reality, and cannot mentally separate reality from fantasy. These parents see this happening and blame the media instead of their own shortcomings as a parent because it's easier to create a faceless scapegoat than it is to take responsibility for one's actions. I'm not calling you out JQ, I'm simply stating what I've seen to be true across all forms of media on a historical basis. Death Metal, Rap Music, violent cartoons, gory horror movies, lacivious books, daytime television, and more have all been pointed at when someone goes off the deep end and does something tragic. The rationale is never made that there are millions of other consumers of these same forms of media that are perfectly capable of keeping themselves in check. People have a right to do as they please and with that, a responsibility to do so with intelligence and compassion. Condemning someone who exercises the right but not the responsibility and laying blame on the media is a cop out. It still seems like you are getting over-excited on this issue concerning the circumstances-- nobody has said they want to outlaw free speech. By saying that that kind of thought is bad, and that it leads to legislation, feels like you are trying to censor my free speech and concerns. As far as what you said earlier, about how parents should be able to decide for their children what games they play, I am curious-- is it okay if a parent decides to show their children porn? Because in my opinion, violence is much more dangerous, and disgusting than sex is, yet I doubt you will find too many people saying that parents should be allowed to subject their children to porn. Is the Mel Gibson thing because of the "Passion" movie? Meh. Obviously if that is why people would feel that way about Gibson films, then they probably have a bias against christianity. As for me, what came to mind was Apocalypto, which was extremely violent. Whereas with the story of Christ it can be argued that the violence is necessary for the message, (and also that it is a historical film,) Apocolypto, historical fiction, was super flawed concerning the details of the Mayans, and was very very needlessly violent. Want to see a great movie with Native Americans? How about Dances With Wolves? That movie is way less violent, YET, way more effective. I realize that they are different timelines, concerning different tribes, but the point still remains that Mel was way more obsessed with creating violent scenes than keeping historical accuracy in Apocalypto. Both my girlfriend and were disgusted with that movie. Mel Gibson has extraordinary talent as a filmmaker, and for some reason he chose, with apocalypto anyway, to make vile crap instead of something truly magical or historical.
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Post by Hackfest on Nov 6, 2007 0:21:13 GMT -5
Yeah, I never saw Apocalypto. You are correct about The Passion though. As a matter of fact, the movie was toned down on the violence. That is, if you believe the book that the movie was based on. To touch on a point you brought up jq, the porn argument doesn't really fly. We are in fact debating something that is legal here. If you go to DSHS and tell them that you show your kid porn, they'll take exception to that and investigate. If you did the same thing with Manhunt, GTA, etc, they might think you're not a very responsible parent. To make my own point, (unless it was already made I didn't read every post), you CAN NOT make a game illegal when gangsta rap is not, when movies are not, when books are not, etc. The fact that this double standard and hypocrisy exists in the video game/media realm is atrocious . The fact that there is even publicity like this in the first place is wrong as well, but that's just how it is. I just loved when Hillary make the beef about "Hot Coffee", while never saying anything about gansta rap and Tarantino. Hmm, no way she could have self-serving motives. What a tool. On another note, what is the consensus of this forum about Manhunt 2 on the Wii. Different experience, no doubt. Mimicking the motions by acting out what's on screen, a kid could really be affected by that. Then again, the game is MADE FOR ADULTS.
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Post by jq on Nov 6, 2007 0:31:39 GMT -5
I think you are missing my point on the porno example, Hackfest. My point is that it IS illegal for children to see, and yet you don't see someone yelling out "THATS CENSORSHIP!"
I'm not for censorship anyway, but that doesn't mean I can't be disgusted with what some people allow their children to see.
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Post by Hackfest on Nov 6, 2007 0:37:54 GMT -5
True. But I think that because it has already been established as illegal, most people leave it at that.
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Post by jq on Nov 6, 2007 0:39:01 GMT -5
True. But I think that because it has already been established as illegal, most people leave it at that. So if we make mature videogames illegal than say, 20, 30 years down the road people won't consider it censorship anymore? I beg to differ.
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Post by Hackfest on Nov 6, 2007 1:04:03 GMT -5
True. But I think that because it has already been established as illegal, most people leave it at that. So if we make mature videogames illegal than say, 20, 30 years down the road people won't consider it censorship anymore? I beg to differ. As would I. An "established" anything is more powerful than you might first imagine. Making something illegal that was not before is hard to do. You won't make violent games illegal for two reasons. One, people would SCREAM about constitutional rights. Two, it's already been established as acceptable. The second reason is just as powerful as the first.
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Post by jq on Nov 6, 2007 1:06:17 GMT -5
Well again, lol, damn, I should just stop because it keeps seeming like what I am saying is that games should be illegal.
I don't feel that way.
Nor do I believe in censorship.
But I think all these theoretical situations are getting to be a bit off topic (for me,) so I think I am going to digress from now.
TO reitarate my main point though on this entire subject: I do not believe in censorship. However, I am appalled by people's taste these days.
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Post by Hackfest on Nov 6, 2007 1:12:29 GMT -5
I agree. About the non-belief in censorship. I do however, wish that the Wii was more graphically powerful, so that it could handle GTA IV. This way, when I beat a hooker with a baseball bat, I can make a downward swing with my arms. Maybe they could even make a bat extension for those who pre-ordered?
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Post by Ess2s2 on Nov 6, 2007 1:12:39 GMT -5
Counterpoint: I'm appalled at you being appalled at my taste in entertainment, so I think we can agree to disagree. Truce?
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